aesc: (yes and yes)
aesc ([personal profile] aesc) wrote2007-10-24 09:33 am

hurrah! and something of a question/observation

Firstly, hurray hurray hurray, we'll have Season 5 of SGA!

You will, of course, notice my clever rhyme scheme.

Secondly, this is something I've always kind of wondered about, at least in terms of my reaction to it.


I've always had kind of a weird response to reading a story/fic in which someone (whether male or female) thinks about the person with whom they're having sex (whether male or female) as his/her lover, especially just before/during/after sex.

There are some people I know who object to the term, especially in slashfic, because it could be taken to imply that the relationship is purely sexual, and possibly illicit. (They understand "lover" as implying, I guess, an illegitimacy in the relationship, similar to the sense of, say, a lover in adultery.) I don't have any moral/semantic objections to it as such, but I've always found its use tremendously disconcerting to read.

I mean, say you're reading something set very decidedly in a particular character's perspective (say, John). And you get to the sexy time and are reading along, porn porn porn, and then you get something like:
John collapsed at Rodney's side, breathing hard, mind blank and reeling and amazed. He looked over at his lover, who was staring at the ceiling, looking as shattered and stunned as John felt.

Admittedly, it's hard to get the gist from such scant context, but "lover" just throws me right out of the moment. I mean, it's supposed to do the exact opposite--reaffirm a relationship the reader is, to some extent, already invested in--but I just find it incredibly jarring. Like, you're writing the characters into a deeply, deeply intimate moment, and to have one of them think of the other in terms of something that approaches abstraction... it's kind of jarring.

For me, at least with John and Rodney, it approaches John calling Rodney "his scientist" (*tries to imagine John calling Rodney that in bed*). Why bother with labels at all? It seems like in that kind of situation the name, the intimate and singular label, is more appropriate.

So does anyone else find it kind of weird/disconcerting/not-quite-right, or am I a bit nuts? I'm not sure why this is bothering me now, or why I'm thinking about it, but there you go.

Oh, wait, yes I am. [livejournal.com profile] weepingcock, which I started looking at because [livejournal.com profile] geeklite linked to it and I am one of those people who watches shows about surgery and medicine on the Discovery Channel because I enjoy being grossed out a bit too much.*


* so long as I can change the channel or click the back button. While I'm at it, I should tell you a lot of this stuff is not for the faint of heart or stomach, as you should expect from a comm named "weepingcock."

In other news: asdlkjf reading today, hiss.

[identity profile] amberlynne.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I was just starting to like you and then you linked me to that community and...excuse me, I have to go cry. A lot. And maybe find a wire brush and some bleach TO SCRUB OUT MY BRAIN!

Um. To answer your question, yes, coming across that kind of language in fic is jarring to me. I think a lot of people use it, especially in slash, to get around the whole confusing pronoun thing and/or repetitive use of names that some authors have a hard time avoiding.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:44 pm (UTC)(link)
excuse me, I have to go cry. A lot. And maybe find a wire brush and some bleach TO SCRUB OUT MY BRAIN!

I told you it was dangerous! No way you're pinning this on me :D

But before you bleach and brush, check out the one with the snake. It's unmitigatedly terrible, but the diagrams are AWESOME.

[identity profile] sheafrotherdon.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, yes, yes! I always get jarred out of things too. I think perhaps it's because I have never, ever heard the word 'lover' used in a serious context. It's always Austin Powers-like - helloooo lovah! And so I always feel weird.

[identity profile] fractalreality.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I have never, ever heard the word 'lover' used in a serious context. It's always Austin Powers-like - helloooo lovah!

That is *exactly* the same problem I have too; everytime I see it I crack up. Not only that, it just seems the wrong word to use, but I can never think of an alternative to suggest.

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[identity profile] tropes.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
hahahahahahah oh God. All I can think of when I read that word is the SNL skit with Rachel Dratch and wossname, Anchorman guy, where they're playing oversexed professors who talk about being LOVAHS all the time. =))

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:47 pm (UTC)(link)
where they're playing oversexed professors who talk about being LOVAHS all the time.

*snort* I'd forgotten about that :D

Oh, the mental images are becoming a bit ridiculous now...

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[identity profile] lilyfarfalla.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I just always assumed that I found it jarring because it seemed rather out of character for John or Rodney to use the word at all, but I think sheafrtherdon is on to something too -- is that a word that makes sense in our lexicon today? I vote: no. (Then again, I'm not sure if I would like it in some historical AU either....)

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I just always assumed that I found it jarring because it seemed rather out of character for John or Rodney to use the word at all,

For them especially, but I've noticed that for a lot of other pairings too. I mean, I honestly can't see most of the pairings I've written thinking of each other in those terms.

(Then again, I'm not sure if I would like it in some historical AU either....)

Okay, now I'm imagining John referring to Rodney as his lemman.

*quietly purges brain*

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[identity profile] tty63.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Yay renewal!! :) My morning just got a lot better.

I completely agree with your assessment of the use of lover. It always drags me out of a story. It's like referring to John as a soldier; I just find it weird.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Eee! Mine too :) I was a bit ecstatic seeing that.

It's like referring to John as a soldier; I just find it weird.

Or pilot. I mean, there are places to introduce that sort of information, and times when it's appropriate, because they are accurate descriptors, but there's a way of doing it too that makes it, uh, not-weird.

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[personal profile] grammarwoman 2007-10-24 02:39 pm (UTC)(link)
SGA was renewed? *EEEEEEEE* (I think I almost sprained my wrist from flapping and jumping around like the spastic fangirl I am.) Thank you for passing that along!

..."lover" just throws me right out of the moment.

Yes. Exactly. I can't put my finger on why, precisely -- maybe it's because it seems completely out of character for whomever's internal narrator we're listening in on. This is especially true in the case of John or Rodney, who's trope overwhelmingly seems to be "What the hell are we doing?", even when they're established partners.

That, or it just seems like archaic Harlequin romance language. I see "lover", and I'm bracing for impact with "his throbbing member" or "his pulsing manhood".

[identity profile] gaffsie.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:54 pm (UTC)(link)
That, or it just seems like archaic Harlequin romance language. I see "lover", and I'm bracing for impact with "his throbbing member" or "his pulsing manhood". That, in a nutshell, is how I feel about "lover". It's just so... lame.

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semielliptical: woman in casual pose, wearing jeans (Default)

[personal profile] semielliptical 2007-10-24 02:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I have winced every time I have read the word lover, in any piece of fan fiction. Unless it was meant to be humorous, or was used by Gilderoy Lockhart or someone like that.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 04:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Unless it was meant to be humorous, or was used by Gilderoy Lockhart or someone like that.

Humor does a lot, yes :D Even then, I tend to wince (in a "bad pun" sort of way).
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[identity profile] ladycat777.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:43 pm (UTC)(link)
It can be very jarring, particularly for John and Rodney who I think would have a difficult time with 'partner' or 'boyfriend' let alone something as intimate -- or potentially insinuating -- as 'lover'.

But I also think that it depends on cultural aspects. Using 'lover' doesn't bother most of the people I know who grew up in Britian, and some even use it as a pet name, similar to 'love' -- although 'love' is used for more indiscriminately :)

But yeah, for a man who grew up in the US or even Canada (which, yes, is more British, but not that much more, Hewlett's personal history aside) I don't think lover is something either of them is going to even think. And say? No way; that's just completely out of character and yeah, very very jarring.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:42 pm (UTC)(link)
But yeah, for a man who grew up in the US or even Canada [...] I don't think lover is something either of them is going to even think.

Oh, you're absolutely right about cultural backgrounds, and about the ways the writer's own background is applied to the characters that are being written. It's something I'm a bit more familiar with in terms of an American trying to parse out British usage, though I can't remember how I reacted when coming across any literary text using the word "lover." I suspect kind of neutrally, though likely the characters themselves were British, or the controlling perspective belonged to a British character... and not, as you say, an American and a Canadian.
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[identity profile] kimberlyfdr.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I actually had the lover discussion at a con panel I was running. I bought it up as "okay, I'm confused, do people really refer to their partners like this?" and the majority said no. It throws me out to hear the reference for some reason.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:06 pm (UTC)(link)
It's very good to know I'm not crazy.

Or, at least, not crazy in regards to this :D

[identity profile] keefaq.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:49 pm (UTC)(link)
"lover"- Yes, I have to squint a little and hurry to get past that or it throws me out of the story, not sure why.

"his scientist"?? -That's just embarrassing.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:05 pm (UTC)(link)
"his scientist"?? -That's just embarrassing.

It's kind of a fanon expression, I've noticed, an extrapolation from "Rodney is the scientist on John's team," though I don't think I've ever seen Ronon referred to as "his Satedan warrior."

Then again, I haven't read much John/Ronon, but even so, if such a thing as "his Satedan warrior" exists, I do NOT want to know about it.

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[identity profile] inthekeyofd.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 02:53 pm (UTC)(link)
For some reason when people used the word "lover or lovers" it makes me cringe.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I kind of have to hustle past it, but even then, I feel unsexy and kind of weirded out for a minute or so.

[identity profile] tex.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:11 pm (UTC)(link)
You aren't nuts. I don't like the term lover either, no matter if its used in a first-time situation or an established relationship thing. Especially when you're talking about John and Rodney - I just can't see them using that word ever. Maybe "boyfriend", but only if they are trying to get a rise (hee) out of each other.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe "boyfriend", but only if they are trying to get a rise (hee) out of each other.

Heh heh. That would degenerate into shouting, I think.

"Take that back!" shouted Rodney.

"What? Boyfriend?" John stuck his tongue out.

"Oh, really mature, Sheppard."

"Yeah, well, I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say about me bounces off me and sticks to you."

[identity profile] chebonne.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I find "lover" weird mostly after reading a hot, hot bit of porn. I mean it's all sex and then John gets soppy? "Lover" is pure romance for me, and to be honest it never feels quite right coming outr of John's thoughts, except possibly in a jokey fashion.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I find "lover" weird mostly after reading a hot, hot bit of porn.

YES, that is it exactly. Sometimes I can handle it elsewhere (and by "handle" I mean "not run away shrieking with annoyance"), but it's the sex! It does not work with the sex!

Maybe that's part of the reason why it's so jarring, because it's something semantic intuition tells you should work, but it just doesn't, and so it's even more awkward. And, as you say, John would probably never say such a thing, except as part of his Austin Powers impression :D

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siria: (Default)

[personal profile] siria 2007-10-24 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
'Lover' is jarring to me because it seems very... smarmy? Sleazy? Old-fashioned, too, and not how I think most people would refer to someone they're in a relationship anymore. Especially John and Rodney, whom I'm pretty sure would go to great lengths to not characterise their relationship in their heads if it meant they had to, you know. Deal with feelings.

References to 'his scientist' and 'his pilot' will make me hit the back button. It doesn't read like a natural thought process, it's reductive of an entire person down to a single, impersonal category, and it smacks of lazy writing.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 04:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Especially John and Rodney, whom I'm pretty sure would go to great lengths to not characterise their relationship in their heads if it meant they had to, you know. Deal with feelings.

Yes yes yes, precisely! One of the reasons why they work for me, and why I like writing them, is that they're so terrible at the feelings stuff, and so never talk about it, and when they do, they're awkward and evasive and pretty much fail at communicating. But they get it, in the things they don't say or can't say, and I love that kind of indirection.

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[identity profile] raiining.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:39 pm (UTC)(link)
... taking up the cry and passing it along: hurray hurray SGA!

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:54 pm (UTC)(link)
*happydancing!!!*

[identity profile] le-mot-mo.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't have such a beautiful and elaborate explanation for it as you have given us, but yes-- I have the same reaction to the word lover in a fic. In fact-- it goes as far that I'm very likely to stop reading a fic if it contains the word lover in the first few paragraphs. There is something about it that makes me cringe and then-- for some reason, I decide that the story is badfic and just move on to other stories. While it's possible that the story in question isn't badfic at all-- but I just can't stand keep reading. I mean-- who in their right mind uses the word lover when they're talking about their partner? o_O Seriously, It's just not used in real life.

I have the same problem with the use of-- what is it called again? Labels? I'm quite sure there's a correct English word that is totally escaping me right now. :o) But, I'll give you a random example to illustrate what could make me turn away from a fic completely (a really bad example, since I've no inspiration right now):

Rodney couldn't stop babbling as John slowly licked his way down his chest-- lower still, until the soldier reached his intended goal and-- completely ignored it. Softly he kissed his way further down along the scientist's thighs, spending a few minutes delicatelly mapping the other man's knees with his lips.

I hate these kind of descriptions in a fic or story. They really throw me out of it and most of the time I just stop reading. What's wrong in calling people by their names, instead of giving them some bizarre designation like the soldier, the scientist, the other man...

And that [livejournal.com profile] weepingcock community? OMG! That's really all I have to say-- OMG! *g*

[identity profile] le-mot-mo.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:46 pm (UTC)(link)
And OMG YAY!! We're getting a season 5!!!! EEEEE!

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mklutz: (Default)

[personal profile] mklutz 2007-10-24 03:45 pm (UTC)(link)
"Lover" throws me every time. I get the implied meaning, but it's smothered in 12-year-old-fangirl "THEIR N LUUUUV!!!!!" for me. And it always, always feels out of character unless someone is drugged out of their mind or something. Even then. Awk-ward.

Weirdly, I'm okay with "his scientist"-- so long as it's -outside- of bed, nowhere near it.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 04:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Weirdly, I'm okay with "his scientist"-- so long as it's -outside- of bed, nowhere near it.

You don't find that hot?

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[identity profile] sloganeer.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 03:57 pm (UTC)(link)
I think there are a lot of arguments that it doesn't work in a cultural context, it doesn't work in the mouth of this character or that, but the word really doesn't work in any fandom, and I'm pretty sure it all comes down to lazy writing.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 04:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I've decided it's like "claiming" or "possessing" someone, which also bugs me, though there are problematic moral overtones to it that "lover" doesn't have. It's like, there are other ways to think about sex, you know.

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[identity profile] stillane.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 04:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Season 5!!! Eeeee! *dance of glee*

Lover. *shudders* This is my biggest fic peeve ever. Ever. Nothing wrecks an otherwise great story for me than this word. I just... I think it's the guy thing. I have a very hard time picturing any of the guys I know thinking it seriously. It strikes me as the equivalent of referring to each other by pet names. ("Sweetie, could you shoot that Wraith for me, please?") The cognitive dissonance is especially painful with someone like John, whose idea of a heart-to-heart involves the other person filling in every other word and an expression like that associated with a root canal.

I can't even get these two to say the traditional three words in my fic without hitting delete. That one I can read, though; I just can't pull it off myself. *shrug*

Re: lemman - > *giggles madly* But, but, twu wuv! *wants a Chaucerian AU now*
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[identity profile] velocitygrass.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 04:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, let me be the one person in fandom to say that while it can throw me out of a story, the use of lover can also work for me and in the snippet that you provided, it did work for me.

However I'm not a native speaker (German), so that could very well be the reason.

As for "his scientist". I vote a big no in sex scenes, when you just want to use something other than Rodney. However used in off-world situation, when John is jealous and thinks that sleazy native physicist had better keep his/her hands off "his scientist", I fully approve. In fact I want to read that story ;)

[identity profile] sleepwalkerfish.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 04:27 pm (UTC)(link)
For me, you have to reach a point in a fic where the word "lover" doesn't scare me anymore - it's very, very rare and now that I think of it, hardly anyone whose fics I read multiple times use that word indeed. But what really is disconcerting for me is when any of them is referred to as "the scientist" or "the soldier" or "the pilot". However much I sink into the fic, these always push me out of it, so much that I can't read it anymore.
Lover is a word that has to be in context so much that it doesn't make you think it's used at all. When you don't even realize it's there.

I'm happy about SGA S5 and try not to think of bad ways the story can go!!!

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 08:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Lover is a word that has to be in context so much that it doesn't make you think it's used at all. When you don't even realize it's there.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I kind of vacillate on "the scientist"/"the doctor," because on one hand it isn't quite technically correct (too close to Burly Detective Syndrome), but I think there are times--as you said, contextually determined, when that use might be appropriate.

[identity profile] cedarlibrarian.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 04:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm in the weird/disconcerting/not-quite-right camp, fwiw. #1: I hate all Homerian epithets (what's wrong with names?). #2: It always seems like manipulation on the writer's part to make the reader believe that Character A and Character B are in it for more than just sex. SHOW me that, Writer. Don't tell me by using the word "lover."

I do confess I used it once. I plead insanity.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I do confess I used it once. I plead insanity.

That wasn't on my watch, was it? If so, I offer myself up for a beating with the Bad Beta Stick.

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[identity profile] quelle-bordelle.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 04:35 pm (UTC)(link)
And lest there was any doubt, SciFi (http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=2&id=44970) confirms it! *happy dance*

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 08:06 pm (UTC)(link)
\o/ \o/ Arms of victory!

[identity profile] lokte.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 04:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I am so with you on the "lover" thing, I hate it. Especially when you see it used in a first time story where they haven't even done the deed yet. I rarely see it in fics from my favourite authors though so it is mostly avoided.

I am so chuffed about season 5, that has made my night *happy dance*.

[identity profile] aesc.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 08:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Especially when you see it used in a first time story where they haven't even done the deed yet.

Or "new lover," speaking of which. That too makes me shudder a bit.
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[identity profile] summertea.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 05:00 pm (UTC)(link)
S5 renewal: JOYGASM

"lover" in fic: brain-smashingly terrible. throws me right out of the fic. john or rodney would probably kill themselves before they'd resort to that.
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[identity profile] summertea.livejournal.com 2007-10-24 06:14 pm (UTC)(link)
[livejournal.com profile] weepingcock is the funniest thing i've seen in a while.

HI AESC, I'VE MISSED YOU. WELCOME BACK TO US.

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